PITCH 2 Brand Cre8tor
Welcome to the first season of Go Pitch Win! Each week Greg is joined by a guest judge to hear 2 entrepreneurs pitch their business or product. After hearing the two pitches they will pick the weekly winner to move on to the final 6. At the end of the 6 weeks, Greg will select the top 3 and then we need you to help us pick the winner! Once the 3 finalists are announced we will open the voting for you #FreedomBuilders to choose our $10,000 winner!
Greg Mercer, Jungle Scout Founder
Greg is the founder and CEO of Jungle Scout, a suite of tools that empowers freedom builders. As a successful entrepreneur, Greg leads a team of 65+ employees. He is also an influential educator, offering free and inspirational content that has helped thousands of people build their own businesses and freedom.
PITCH - Brand Cre8tor
Gino and Ben tell us about their platform Brand Cre8tor. Brand Cre8tor helps small businesses build out brand assets affordably and quickly.
Gino and Ben
Gino: Okay great. Thanks Greg, and thanks Dave. Thank you very much for the opportunity to have us today. My name's Gino. I'm a full-time Amazon seller, and I've been selling for about eight months now on Amazon and also been doing Brand Cre8tor as well. I guess you could call me the full-time entrepreneur. My background is product management. I've been in product management in the IT industry for about 20 years. That's me. Over to Ben.
Ben: Hi guys. I'm actually a strategic advisor to the founders of Brand Cre8tor. The founders basically picked up Brand Cre8tor as an idea about [inaudible 00:01:56] months ago. They've been developing it for a while, testing it in market. My background, I'm actually currently running a big part of a global SaaS company. I've got product engineering and marketing teams across Australia and New Zealand, the US and the UK, and been having a lot of fun helping these guys and there's some pretty unique thoughts going on in Brand Cre8tor, and yeah, really excited to help tell the story.
Gino: We're here to introduce Brand Cre8tor. Brand Cre8tor is the world's first online branding consultant. It's for anyone actually creating a new brand. It's a simple, six-step process. It builds your brand. We call it a brand blueprint, and it generates a brief for you to share with your designers or anyone that's working on your brand.
We know that, well not everyone knows actually, that branding is not just a logo. There's a lot of misunderstanding about that, and if you really understand the steps of branding you can go a long way, and hiring experts can be really, really expensive. What we did was we built a tool to really simplify it and we've made it available to everyone.
We know that only 2-3% of Amazon sellers really ever launch a product, and we think that part of the reason for that is because they're not really focusing on their brand initially, and that's a major factor on why they're not succeeding with their Amazon business.
The problem we see is that everyone, and Greg, you probably know this, everyone sort of goes straight for the designers. They go to the Upwork, they go to Fiverr, they go to 99Designs, but we know that not all designers and all creatives are made equal. What you get out is only as good as what you really put in, and being able to articulate your brand is linked to being successful in your business. The best way to get what you want is really what we've come up with at Brand Cre8tor, and that is creating a concise, good brief to share with all your designers.
We believe that Amazon sellers really can't brief well enough until they've used Brand Cre8tor. In the Amazon world, sellers have all these tools. They have tools for sourcing, and they have tools for logistics and financials. They have all these online tools available to be able to help them in their Amazon business, but really there's nothing out there at the moment to help create a strong brand and really a brief to share with the people that's developing your brand.
Brand Cre8tor is really what we're calling the branding consultant in the cloud. It's a six-step process, and we cover off things like brand story, brand purpose, brand values, brand personality. How you want your brand to be perceived in the market. The brand look and feel, which is your logo and your colors, and also your target market, which is really important because developing your avatar to be able to understand why you're selling your products to them and why they would even buy your product, that's so important with creating your brand.
The output of Brand Cre8tor is essentially a branding brief. We call it the blueprint. Basically what it does is it puts everyone on the same page so when you engage your designers for your logos or your copywriters, your social media marketers and your influencers, everyone that you want to communicate your brand, share this brief with them and it provides a consistent message across all your business or all your brand.
We know that it's really, really important to be a successful Amazon seller, you need to always be launching product and if you're always launching product, potentially you're launching multiple brands and Brand Cre8tor really keeps the blueprint, what happens is you're able to really keep the consistency across your products and across also your brands as well.
Ben: Right, so where are we today? Brand Cre8tor's at what we call MVP, so minimum viable product. We've actually had a lot of success already, and we feel that some of the numbers that we're going to share with you today really illustrate that success. We'll also talk a little bit about where we're going to take the product as well. Today, MVP is all about this simple tool that creates a blueprint and allows us to get out there and test the product, but create a lot of value for those that are using it already when we know that there are some big things in store for the product.
Version one is MVP. The way that it works is customers actually sign up and they can sign up for free. They sign up for free and can actually start to use the tool, however if they want to be able to use the full range of the assets that they build, so the output from Brand Cre8tor, then they actually need to pay for the export capability, the downloads, and in the future there will be a whole bunch of extra features that will only be available when the Amazon sellers are actually signed up as a paying customer. A pretty simple, but tried and tested approach to demonstrating value and also creating more value.
Just a few insights into how things are going already on the MVP, so we're acquiring customers off the back of presenting at Amazon seller conferences, at trade shows, et cetera. We've actually had about a 50% conversion of those that we talked to, so whether that's a whole bunch of people sitting there in the audience, and we actually have been tracking those numbers, or those that we're actually talking to on the floor. Around 50% of those actually convert to signing up, and of those, another 50% of them have become paying customers.
We've got some really good feedback so far. So far there's been a lot of feedback around, "Hey, I've never actually thought about my brand in this way. I have actually just thought of it. This is all about just creating a design. Well, now you're helping me understand it's a lot more than that, and this helps me. I don't have to go and read a book. I don't have to go and troll the internet for hours and listen to talks and really look at thought leaders and evangelists. This tool helps me do it myself and it gives me a lot of confidence in how I talk to those helping me with my brand."
Obviously there are some ideas that we've got in train, and we've thought pretty hard about how we would spend our next $10,000. The next phase is really about two things. One is building a referral engine, and we're mostly just calling that a set of plugins. The second is enhancing user experience and building a couple of those features that we were talking about before.
The first of those is being able to plug in to third party marketplaces and allow those marketplaces to receive blueprints as essentially new customers coming into those platforms. We've had a good look at how the referral commercials work across those platforms, and we've also had a look at how direct designers and other creatives are currently paying for referral, and that is one of the second sources of our new revenues. Obviously we've got a fee-based revenue on sign up and using the advanced features, and the second set of that is actually that referral engine and driving referral revenues. That's important for us from a business point of view. Most importantly it's about the customer, and that's the seamless experience of actually creating your brand and then having the right designers, the right creatives on the right platform responding to those briefs and giving really high quality feedback to the briefs.
Around the user experience, there's a couple things we're going to do. We've got a bit of controls, certainly now sites. For example, being able to create really rich color palettes, we've got a simple tool today. Being able to understand what color palettes will have the most impact for your brand, we've actually done some prototyping and R&D using Google AI, so there's a really nice set of APIs that are available for visual controls, but also in analyzing other kinds of visual representation as well as natural language APIs. We've already done the R&D there, and we think there's some really intelligent things that are all about driving virality. What we really want in this product is some wow factor where an Amazon seller jumps online, uses the tool for the first time, and it's not just a conceptually powerful tool and something that helps them, but it's got a bit of wow factor in it and they go, "You know what? I'm actually going to tell another Amazon seller about this," or even if it's just I'll tell mom and dad or my best friends. That's going to be a very powerful tool to help us acquire customers with a low CAC, cost of acquisition, because that's one of the things we're certainly seeing as a big challenge for any new online player, is that customer acquisition cost.
A bit of a breakdown on our target market, so low level on this we feel is a bit proprietary, but we really look at our customers and our target segmenting in two ways. Sellers inside 12 months, so new sellers, they've been having a go on Amazon for 12 months, and those that have got past 12 months and are starting to sell and there's a bunch of attributes that we understand around those sellers. And all of the total group of existing sellers, so across inside and beyond 12 months. We believe that 80% of those are yet to have a breakthrough and sustainable product. Now their numbers really give us a [tan 00:12:26] on Amazon's business today of around 1.18 million sellers. You want customer acquisition, following the introduction of the new features that we're going to build, we believe we can bring in about 8,200 customers.
We then look at the next five years, and we've applied some industry churn that we see out there in the market. Again we've looked at a couple of different marketplaces. We've looked at SaaS products, and ultimately combining one-off fee revenue and referral revenues and accounting for churn, we believe that an [inaudible 00:13:03] customer base of 6,500 customers in year one, total revenues of $1 million, could be as large as year five $14 million in gross revenues and 85,000 customers, accounting for churn.
What we haven't accounted for here are things like our customer acquisition cost. Obviously it's scale. We hope that things like virality will really help keep those costs low. What we also know is that some of the face-to-face success that we've had, conferences and the like, they're not scalable globally. We don't plan to have a team flying all around the world pitching at conferences. Yes that's going to be part of getting our brand and our business out there, but it can't be our acquisition channel. Again we've been looking at social and other avenues there, doing some tests, et cetera.
Gino: We believe that there is really nothing like this available today, and it's really just, what we think is really going to disrupt the traditional way of building out a brand. Traditionally it's been very costly process and going to marketing agencies and spending a lot of money on your brand. This is systemizing it and making it affordable and accessible to all the online entrepreneurs.
With what's happening with the rise of the entrepreneur and the growth I guess in that online private label selling, we believe Brand Cre8tor is the first place that people will start to create and wanting to launch a successful brand. If you want to do that, go to BrandCreator.com.
Greg: I was wondering if you could walk me through the product. I don't actually have a clear picture of what it does.
Gino: It's essentially a staged process, so it's a well-defined process and we take you through those steps. You actually come out with a lot of the information yourselves as the brand owner and the Brand Cre8tor. You initially start with your brand story. How did you get started? Or where do you want to go? If you're five years in the future, where do you want to go with that? Then you look at your brand purpose. What's the purpose behind your brand? Do you want to sell a lot, or do you ... That sort of stuff.
Greg: Is this just a questionnaire that a person fills out?
Gino: Yeah, well it's more than a questionnaire. Yeah, it is a questionnaire up until a certain point where then we ask you how do you want the brand to look and feel? Then we pull in components that include colors and different sort of aspects of how you want the brand to look and behave, and then we look at your avatar. We pull out of you where you want to be selling that product and why that avatar would want to buy from you. Essentially then you come up with a brief that you can share, like a PDF that you can share with your designer.
Greg: What are the actual deliverables to the customer? They take this survey, you say you're creating them a brand. What do you give them at the end of this?
Gino: They essentially get a document that then they can share with everyone else. That's the deliverable, is a well-formatted document that a designer and a creative is used to seeing I guess, because a lot of the time I've noticed with a lot of Amazon sellers is they really don't know what they don't know, and they don't know how to articulate a lot of that, so the designer will take that document and say, "Yep, okay. Now if I'm doing a social media piece, how do I want to communicate?" Then they can look at that and build out what they want to communicate with. Essentially it's that brief, Greg, that we actually send through.
Greg: There's no kind of visuals included with this brand? It's more so the story behind the brand? Is that accurate?
Gino: No, there's visuals which you probably can't see right now because we're not sharing, but on one of the slides it shows the brief and it provides an artistic style where you select what type of artistic style your brand is, and it'll give you an image and a color palette and so there is components there that is very visual for the Brand Cre8tor so they can share with the designers, yeah.
Greg: It seems like the output of your tool is heavily dependent on what's put in in the questionnaire, right? What if the entrepreneur has no idea who their customer avatar is, or they don't really do a good job? It seems like there needs to be some sort of human element to pry out some of that information, right?
Ben: Yeah, and that's actually some of the things we've explored before. Actually, really interesting part of our story, is actually that we started at Brand Cre8tor when all of us actually originally consulting to the founders. The idea was around online direct support in brand consulting, so having some online tools that would actually then lead to, over video conferencing, being able to support people and develop their brand. We didn't think that that was particularly scalable or palatable at the price point that Amazon sellers in particular would be willing to pay, so we began by looking at how to automate that.
Back to your original question, hey, this really depends on the quality of the input and the ability of an Amazon seller to sift through the guided process. That's exactly where we see the opportunities in the product as well. The opportunities are hey, take this guided process, which gives simple examples, which has some how-tos, and make that really powerful. Bounce people out to some really simple infographics around what particular aspects are.
Actually giving on the color palette side, again our R&D has already allowed us to build some tools where you can drag and drop images that you like, drag and drop colors that you like from the internet, and then it instantly actually pulls out some color palettes and gives you a very rich tapestry.
Today what we have is a visual tool that allows the Amazon seller to create a color palette quite manually. We're going to make that very intuitive, and again using Google AI we're going to be able to just drag and drop pictures in and actually create a color palette fabric that they feel is beautiful and represents them and their brand that they can then hand to designers. I guess we're focusing quite heavily on designers here. There are a whole bunch of other service providers that are popping up around online. Social media, getting your voice out there with vlogging and blogging. That actually all requires briefing those that are supporting your brand. Again, we believe this tool can really help in that way.
Greg: Can you talk again a little bit to the monetization strategy? I was a little confused on your projections. You're going to try to turn this into a subscription? Or it already is? Tell me a little bit more about that.
Gino: Yeah. Currently what it is, what we did was we launched with a freemium model I guess, with a sign up for free and they can create as many blueprints as they want in their account, and then when they want to share that blueprint, that's when they download and pay $99, essentially.
However, we believe that with how we've launched, then we're at MVP now, we can potentially change that model and have just people sign up for the $99 first, so initially sign up and then utilize the tool later on and hopefully with our hooks into some of the other freelancer platforms, then they can move from where they are into those spaces. Yeah, we want to kind of change the monetization of that with the next version.
Greg: So it's a one-off sale essentially?
Gino: It's a one-off sale, but then an ongoing ... When we connect in or plug in to the freelancer sites, there's an ongoing concern there for us so we'll take an ongoing fee.
Greg: Is that like affiliate revenue then?
Ben: That's referral fees for referring other platforms. Simply one-off ... You sign up, use the basics of the feature, pay $99 to use the advanced feature set, and you can use that for life. You've paid your $99. Then if you then use the assets that Brand Cre8tor develops, again those are growing over time, we're having more and more features released over time, those features will then of course plug in to the other platforms as well, so referring customers and their brand blueprint directly to other platforms or even directly to designers and then that is where we drive those ancillary revenues. That's where we go referral fees. It might be affiliate revenues as well if we were to go down the affiliate path.
Greg: How many customers do you have so far?
Ben: Yeah. 50% of those paid.
Greg: You're primarily focusing on marketing this towards Amazon sellers? Is that right? Or that's kind of how you're starting or what you've had success with so far? Is that right?
Gino: Yeah, that's kind of where we started but definitely the tool, that's why I mentioned or talked about disruption in the market because I think that traditionally to get these types of briefs out of organizations or people wanting to start businesses, it's difficult and costly. Yeah, this will move hopefully into other entrepreneurial endeavors. Yeah, absolutely.
Steve: Are your existing customers using this document to create a logo or a website, or both? What is the primary use case?
Gino: You know, around about 50% of people are just using it to develop a logo with some packaging. That type of thing. The other half are using it for way more than that. They're using it for websites, how the website's going to be designed. We've actually had a few people talk about social media presence as well, like being able to build out a social media, things like Facebook ads and how they want those Facebook ads to look like and communicate. There's a real mix of what the brief's used for. I think that may change over time, because if it gets out there more prolifically then you'll see I think people using it more and more to build out their entire brand, but yeah, that's about the mix of what we've seen. Heavy on the logo, packaging side, but again, some of them are using it for website and online ads and that sort of thing.
Greg: What's the current platform like where those 200 customers have signed up? It's already set up with the questionnaires? I guess you haven't really moved into the more like the AI side. Is that right?
Gino: Yeah, it's still at that questionnaire with examples and selecting what you believe is part of your brand. It's very much at that point, which is what we're calling the MVP, and so we want to build on that and again, that's where we'd use the $10,000 to help us build that out.
Greg: Who's built the site so far up to date?
Gino: We're working closely with Ben's team and yeah, so it's not us specifically. We're not coders or anything like that, so yeah, we're using an external service. Yeah.
Greg: How much money have you invest in it so far?
Gino: To get it where it is today, we've invested around $20,000. $20, $25,000. That's to get the website up and all the branding done.
Ben: That includes your conferences and everything as well.
Gino: Yeah. Yeah, it includes conferences, and pretty much where we're at today. Yeah.
Greg: Yeah, so you spent $20 or $25K but you've done $10K in revenue or so? Is that right?
Gino: Yeah, around about. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Steve: These people that you've converted, were they physically present and you actually walked them through the UI to convert them?
Gino: They're actually getting themselves through the conversion process, which is something we're quite excited about. While our acquisition has actually been, and getting our voice out there has absolutely been at conferences and on the floor, converting them from the point where they've signed up through to paying has been something they've done themselves. That's something that we're quite excited about because it was actually our biggest concern, that the customers actually wouldn't want to pay, but in fact we've found that they got enough value. We didn't have to go through our signup list and actually use things like EDMs to chase them down and try and get them to convert to paying. We found, again, this natural 50%, just under, it was 49, 49.2% converted to paying. It was again, we're quite excited by that.
We're under no illusions. I think there's some, absolutely the passion that we show on the floor, the way that we actually talk face-to-face with potential customers in those conferences around what's possible with a great brand, getting that to translate through into online acquisition channels is going to be a challenge, but again once we've got them there, we've had some success today.
Steve: Just to be clear on the deliverable, you provide a color palette, brand messaging, and everything that's required for a developer to kind of implement something that matches who you're trying to target?
Gino: Yeah, correct. Yeah.
Steve: And right now this is entirely based on a questionnaire that a seller enters in that is guided by questions that you ask?
Gino: Correct, and tips that we provide and yeah, some other little guidance that we actually provide as well. It's not just a form. There's some, you know, click on a button for an example and it pops up an example. There's also some video-guided ... There's a couple of videos that help guide the seller through the process.
Steve: Then they get the deliverable via the webpage and then they have the option to buy the PDF?
Gino: Yeah, so in their account they'll have a list of blueprints that they're working on or that they were creating. When they want to share that, they do the download and pay through checkout.
Steve: Okay, but they can see it without having to pay for it?
Gino: But that's the model that we have at the moment.
Steve: Sure. No, I was just kind of curious.
Gino: Yeah, yeah.
Steve: Then along with this packet, you probably have a list of designers that you can refer people to that you recommend, and then you get an additional cut off of that revenue.
Greg: Gino, you working on this full time?
Gino: Yes. I do my Amazon business and I do Brand Cre8tor full time. Yeah.
Greg: Okay, cool.
Gino: I'm all in, Greg. I'm all in.
Steve: How big is your team right now that's working on this, the development part? Or are they just contractors?
Gino: It's all contractors at the moment, yes.
Gino: Yes. There's three ... I have two other partners in the business. Actually, two other partners that are marketers, and so they've provided the intelligence behind the process, and I guess I'm providing the know-how and pulling it all together.
Steve: What is your IP that only you possess that no one can copy? Meaning like could someone just go through your tool, look at your questionnaire and just replicate it? Or do you have algorithms in place in your software that are not replicable?
Ben: We actually do have a fairly extensive roadmap ideated. Probably I would argue 60% of that could potentially be proprietary. Where the product is today, absolutely we know that others can pick that up and replicate it. We believe some of the ideas we've got will be very hard to replicate.
I'll give an example of a creative process where we're asking people to create what we call a brand personality. That's one of the outputs of the process. To create a brand personality, which is something that designers and creatives are used to working with, there's steps that you need to do to go through to ask the questions, and then followed by a series of other iterations that then create a personality and creating that map between natural language answers and a brand personality as an output, that's the piece that we believe will be proprietary and hard to copy.
Greg: I know you kind of mentioned like with the $10,000 you would use that to further develop the platform. Do you have any other insights for us on what the $10,000 would be used for?
Ben: It really comes down to those two steps. There's some API connections that we need to make to some of the design platforms so that we can actually pass the Brand Cre8tor output over digitally, so click of the button. That's again where we're making those referral revenues. To be really specific, it literally just allows a Brand Cre8tor to push digital forms of the brief to designers, and the second part is very much around using some publicly available APIs that have Google AI behind them to create some of the nicer, more viral features. Again, that's code that's publicly available, but we'll implement it in a fairly unique way within Brand Cre8tor.
Gino: I think, Greg, that's kind of where we're at in terms of where we really need to get it to that next level in a development stage. I think yeah, we could use that money to promote ourselves and do some marketing, and we've done that. We've done that, but I think what we'd like is if we go out to the wider community, is to have that additional functionality in there that makes us really unique and being able to connect into these other platforms. Yeah, I hope that sort of answers that question. We might use a little bit of it to help us promote stuff, but it's pretty much the development side.
Greg: For the final two questions, first one is do you guys have any final thoughts on why you should be selected for the $10,000 prize?
Gino: At the end of the day, what I'd like to do is help the Amazon seller with their business, and it's kind of been a passion of mine since I started on Amazon and on this online entrepreneur journey, is that I just love how everyone gets together and helps each other out. It is really unique and I've not seen it before, and I just think that Brand Cre8tor will just help so many sellers get over that hump of, "Yeah okay, I've picked a product, but where do I go from here? I'm not sure what the packaging should look like, I'm not sure what my website should look like." It really is I guess a stopping point for a lot of sellers, so that's why I think that our Brand Cre8tor and our solution is one of the best ones out there at the moment to just help everyone and hopefully be prolific everywhere, for all the sellers.
Ben: Greg, you asked us a really good question before around hey, is this just about Amazon sellers? One of the things that we know is that we can actually have some early success on the Amazon platform. There's absolutely no reason why we wouldn't be able to target online sellers of every type.
Getting the reach in terms of online sellers is something that we know is going to be a challenge. It's one we're focusing on on the Amazon space. No one's actually ever tried to do this before. It's inherently difficult, it's creative, it is something that isn't necessarily hugely obvious, but at the same time given the amount of money that's spent on marketing globally and how much of that is probably wasted, we think that if we can demonstrate the benefits, and we're starting to see that come through with a couple of our customers in a really good way, then we can actually drive a lot of positive outcomes not only across the Amazon economy, but the online economy in general. We're pretty excited about it. It's been a lot of fun helping Gino and the team and the energy that these guys have shown has been fantastic.
Greg: Great, and after listening to all of this, if someone wants to sign up for Brand Cre8tor, where would they do so?
Gino: Okay, so all they have to do is go to BrandCre8tor.com, and how we've spelled that is Brand Cre8tor, so C-R-E and the number 8, T-O-R, so it's a little bit tricky, but yeah, it's BrandCre8tor.com. It's free to sign up. Yeah, go and have a try, go and have a look. You won't be disappointed.
Greg: Thank you very much for that. Steve, after listening to this pitch for the last 20 or 30 minutes or so, with the questions, do you have one or two minutes worth of advice for these guys?
Steve: As I was listening to you guys pitch, what wasn't entirely clear to me was the deliverable and how it could actually lead to money. If you had some examples where you perhaps had a client or something that was selling okay on Amazon, but then you went through this branding process, got a logo, packaging, and then lift in revenue somehow. Or how she applied that to create a beautiful-looking website that is now converting outside of Amazon. Something like that. That was kind of the piece that I was trying to get at, but that part was missing for me.
Gino: That's absolutely great feedback.
Ben: Yeah, it is.
Gino: Thank you very much.
Ben: That would be really useful. I think tracking a few customers that we've got in beta at the moment that have obviously given us the positive feedback, I think gives us a good place to start there.
Gino: Yeah. Fantastic.
Greg: I guess the only feedback that I would have, and I don't know if I'm exactly right here, but I don't know if most people understand the value of thinking about the brand holistically before they're getting started. I could be wrong there, but I imagine most people just jump in and think of their brand as just getting their packaging design or getting their logo design. You kind of said some things like that, so I think probably one of your challenges here would be kind of educating people. Actually, I do believe in what you guys are doing and trying to think of your brand holistically from the beginning. I think that probably saves some trouble down the road, but my feeling is that most people don't believe in that or think that, so I guess the only advice would maybe be kind of like education or case study, like Steve said. Something that really shows the value of thinking about this upfront could go a long way.
Overall, hey, 200 customers so far and 100 paying, that's something to be proud of. Usually the hardest part is to get those first 100 customers to pay you, so you're doing something right.
Steve: Yeah, and the fact that they're willing to pay even though they have the content for free says something.
Gino: Great feedback, and yeah, we're excited in the fact that people are going through that journey and seeing the value. I think it's just a matter of getting the people there and like you say, Greg, it is an educational thing, but yeah, if they know that upfront it would be great, but in the Amazon world we start talking a little bit more about brand because I think it's really important when they do launch their first product. Although it may not be perceived as not important because they rush to the product and they just want to get it up there and sell, but it's not only Amazon, right? It's a lot of other online sellers, and it's even people off the online side of things.
We've had a couple of ... more than a couple, we've had a few people, a few companies that own their own businesses, like small, like chiropractor businesses or that sort of thing who want to brand themselves differently to what they are or create some sort of brand, and they've used Brand Cre8tor and that's helped them in their business.
Yeah, there's a lot more education and there's a lot more opportunity there I think to be had. Thanks very much, guys.